Well really Part 3 to the end of the book. ;-)
1.) Even with Adam in her life, why does Ariel still feel the need to return to Patrick and 'sell' hereself to him?
2.) What does Ariel take away from her meeting with Lura - a better idea of Burlem or of Mr Y or something else altogether?
3.) Why do the KIDS appear young and without emotion?
4.) Are Burlem and Lura 'soulmates' in the 'we love each other' sense or do they simply share similar experiences?
5.) In Chapter 24 Ariel dreams of Apollos Smitheus sayins she owes him - What does she owe him? Her life? Her soul? Her academic work?
6.) Does Adam's character represent some kind of Biblical hero such as Adam of Genesis? (Maybe I am very naieve to think this.)
7.) In chapter 27, Adam tells Ariel, "We can't decide. It's not up to us. History has to make itself. And it probably will anyway, whatever we do." What does this mean to us? Is history a metaphor for God to some degree?
8.) Do Ariel and Adam every leave the Troposphere? What is there that they can't find in the real world beside each other?
9.) Is the author's use of crude language necessary to the text or is it simply there to shock us?
10.) What the heck did you make of this book? ;-)
*Kate
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I sit here in the middle of the Blizzard of 2009, my radiators are not yet on and my space heater keeps shutting off. I have two blankets wrapped around me and a cup of tea very close by. Then on my way back from the bathroom I saw Mr. Y and remembered! I CAN LIGHT MY OVEN, LIKE ARIEL! So now my oven is blasting at 550 degrees and is wide open. Don’t know if it’s quite “safe”, but hey, at least it it’ll warm up a little in here : )
ReplyDeleteThe second half of the book was… Interesting. Kate, I may have to make a new post just to discuss the end… And great choice of books, by the way! While it was a little over my head all the way through it, I still really enjoyed it.
The Questions:
1. When she sold herself to Patrick, I don’t think she had Adam. She had given him up, completely. As humans, and especially as girls, I think we have this stupid tendency to not think we are worthy of certain good things in our lives and though most of us are able to accept good gifts, I don’t think Ariel was anywhere near being able to accept any sort of gift of the heart. It’s not surprising then (heartbreaking, though) that she should degrade herself so.
2. At first, I think all she gets is confusion. But as Lura starts to trust her, Ariel gains a friend. And someone who will challenge her.
3. Weren’t the KIDS actually kids in real life? Before they died? And I’m not sure they are “without” emotion. I would say they are filled with every sort of emotion you would hope to never see in a human being, let alone in children.
4. Great question… I wondered if they loved each other more platonically or actually loved each other. I came to think of them as having started off poorly in relationship choices, but growing to love, and respect, each other through the experience and intellectual stimulation.
5. Ummm… Didn’t she still have to go back into the Troposphere and save the lab mice? I think that’s the favor she had to do for him in exchange for his rescuing her for a second time.
6. I do have to admit if there the reason Thomas named him Adam was from THE Adam. Part of me thinks yes, he is a weird representation, but another part of me says there is nothing, other than a feeling I get, to say that he is tied to the original Adam. Maybe that’s her point in writing him as such a character. To make vague enough references to make us think Biblically.
7. I want to answer this question with a big paragraph (or manuscript) on time travel, but I’m going to refrain. There is nothing we can do to change history from this point in time. We can make decisions for our futures. And those decisions will be our history. We can decide to change what will happen (to a degree), but once it’s happened the decision for that moment is unchangeable.
On a side note, can I just say that I love the thought of time travel and the way it warps my brain to think about it. It’s one of the greatest never-ending loops of a puzzle and I love to contemplate it. And the whole trains-of-emotion plotline (while quite frightening) was probably my favorite part of the book. The thought of infinite speed was so fun to bend my mind around. It’s so true how if you were looking at something going infinitely fast it would appear to be standing still. I LOVED THAT!
GEEZ! I wish we could sit over coffee and discuss this…
8. I don’t think they can leave the Troposphere. They both die on the outside world. And I am glad they ended up together, and I don’t think there actually anything of any worth to either of them in the outside world other than each other, so I think they are glad to give it up. I am intrigued however, at how they continue to live on in Ariel’s mind and in turn everyone else’s. Without a belief in God, or god(s), how does the mind/spirit survive? Is their god knowledge? Thought? Or do I remember reading that Ariel came to believe that she is her own god?
(I could try to look that up, but I’m finally getting warm and my book is in my bedroom and I don’t want to get up!)
9. At first I was a bit offended by the language, but as I got to know Ariel, she became like any of my friends that I have worked with over the past several years. The language continues to bother me, but I grow to love them and I can look past the language. Foul language is such a part of our world anymore, I kind of think that it was just sort of a way of seeing how people like Ariel would actually speak.
10. New post for this one!
Kate… Do we get to hear your thoughts on these questions? And I’d love to know what made you pick this book!
#1. I thought she was just completely desperate for money (are we talking about just the gas-station bathroom time?), and although she didn't want to do it, she had no other options to choose from. She needed money.
ReplyDelete#2. She learned a lot about the inner workings of the troposphere, I think... largely just from working through all that she already knew, while explaining it to Lura and Burlem. In some ways, her conversations with them helped her to get grounded and to trust herself and her own knowledge, I think.
#3. Ok. The KIDS really creeped me out, and the whole concept makes me just want to cry. I don't think I can think about that.
#4. I agree with Gretchen in that I think whatever Lura and Burlem were in the beginning, they have grown to love and respect each other. They are a good match intellectually, the have the shared experience/burden of The End of Mr. Y, and they obviously care about each other.
#5. I really didn't understand why Ariel had to do this "favor" for Apollo Smintheus. I know that she "owed" him for the help he lent her... but what could he do to her if she didn't do the favor for him? I didn't seem that he was able to affect anything happening in the real world (or wouldn't he have just taken care of the mouse-lady himself). Was she risking her life out of a sense of duty? If she hadn't needed to go back to the time of Lumas as well, would she still have done the favor for him?
I think it raises an interesting question regarding how the author portrays God... or gods. What did you guys make of that? How the gods are only as powerful as the number of prayers they receive... how/why are they gods, then, if they receive their power from humans? It makes me wonder about Thomas' beliefs.
#6. hmmm. I'm not sure. He is definitely the only person that has ever really loved Ariel, as far as the reader knows (except maybe Wolf? he seemed to be a good friend). And it seemed that she wanted to be a better person for him. The whole plot line of him dying essentially to save her, though, does line up with him being the original Adam, or some sort of Christ-like figure.
#7. I can't remember the context of this quote. I'll have to go back and look...
#8. I am glad that they have each other -- for eternity, I assume? Ariel had such a sad life, that it felt right for her to find some form of happiness. However, I felt really unsatisfied with the end of the book. Did anyone else? I can't exactly decide what I wanted to happen? A great tragedy? Resolution? A big cliff-hanger? I'm not sure... any ideas of a better/different ending from others?
#9. I really hate it when the word "fuck" refers to sex. I always have! As an exclamation... whatever, I don't really care. But I just hate that word! Thomas used it a bit too much for my taste, although it seemed realistic for the characters.
My random thoughts - GG, I also loved the 'emotion trains' plot. Brilliant! And frightening! I also like the concept that time is distance and vice versa. Talk about a brain twister!
I'm looking forward to hearing other people's thoughts!
Not on “top of things” necessarily…(but thanks for the undue compliment anyway Karissa) I just feel that if I don’t comment right away on a book, I lose the excitement and emotions of ‘being in the novel’ or ‘just finished. Since I have this compulsion to immediately move on to the next book (I am four books away from Mr. Y at this point), it really is my own fault that I have a hard time going back to a book and remembering specifics. Books just play such a integral, passionate role in my life that I probably am taking this club a little too seriously. Thanks for bearing with my proddings and pokings! I will be more patient (maybe) in the future. So let’s get on with it…
ReplyDelete1.) Ditto Karissa, I thought because at this point, she had no one else who could help her and give her the money she needed. Perhaps she also felt some comfort in going back to Patrick or some sort of desire to act out her fantasies? But yeah, to get to Burlem she needed money…
2.) This whole sequence of conversations reminded me of the quote that was in “Master Butcher’s” about not really knowing something until you talked it out. Again, ditto K-joy. ;)
3.) I thought that these KIDS were really kids, like special needs kids who were co-opted by some twisted government experiment because they could navigate about the Troposphere in ways adults couldn’t??? Creepy…
4.) I didn’t think they were a couple by circumstance rather than destiny. It seemed to me that they were connected by the curse of the book more than by star-crossed love. I felt Lura really needed Burlem for something that wasn’t fully explained (or something I missed?) in the novel, like a research assistant or something? I felt like even though he sought her out, she needed his help with her experiements?
5.) Can I just say I didn’t like Apollo Smitheus? A giant mouse god? Huh? I thought their deal was only at face value. He clued her in about the Troposphere and rescued her twice and she did him a favor…
But interesting, Karissa, he really couldn’t have done anything right? Thomas did make the gods very unpowerful (they can only act if someone is praying to them?) and I don’t think that she believes in God from what and how she wrote this novel. She basically created an original world view (new creation story, rules about how gods work, who makes the decision and holds the power on the path of life).
6.) Well that seems to be where the plot led us in the end…I totally thought the ending was her way of writing a new creation story with the epilogue describing the garden of knowledge and how they were standing on the edge of all creation…???
7.) I liked this quote’s reference to insignificance and time travel and how the end of this chapter indicated the author’s view that no matter what you might change (like Hitler), someone else could very well try to do the same thing. The more I travel and investigate cultures the more I feel like we are all the same, and therefore very likely to act in similar patterns. Perhaps this is common sense, since God created us all and knows how we will all act in the end.
**Gretch, total aside, but about the time travel thing, have you ever seen “Dr. Who”? It is a British kids TV show originally aired when we were barely born but in recent years has been spiffed up and the plot lines continued. It has brilliant story lines about time travel and parallel worlds and how things happen but perhaps they could be altered…anyway, I think from your comments you would love it! I was surprised by how much I loved the series (I could only roll my eyes when Craig first brought it up)!!!
8.) I didn’t think they could leave, or wanted to? And I felt like that was because Ariel wanted to stay for the knowledge that she could gather, the knowledge that she knew existed in the Troposphere but that she couldn’t seek out in the normal world. I thought Adam stayed because he wanted to be with her. *see my thoughts on the ending in Gretch’s separate post
9.) I don’t think such language is necessary but as Gretch said, is Thomas’ device for conveying her character’s attitudes and lifestyles. I think she wanted this novel to have a certain feel, a certain roughness or brashness. Grit perhaps is the word I am looking for, and in that sense, the language/sexual content was effective.
10.) I will answer this under Gretch’s post.
Kate, please say SOMETHING!!!! We want to know your ideas too (and if there was anything other than the black pages that drew you to this book!).